One of the blogs I read is by a Mormon woman. She is an incredible writer and, like me, considers being a mom one of her main missions in life. We're on opposite sides of the mom spectrum with her kids being very small and mine at college. I cannot even begin to enumerate the things I've learned, myths dispelled and other gifts from her blog.
Before I go any further, one thing you should know about my one and only bird who recently flew the nest to make his own nest at college is that he is gay. Another thing you should know is that we believe that being gay is just as natural, normal and valid as being straight.
The blog I just mentioned addressed homosexuality today, specifically some things their leader has recently said. Nothing struck me as too untoward until I went and read the leaders remarks myself. It's too much to sort out my own thoughts right now so I'm just going to quote an editorial from the Oct 9 Salt Lake Tribune,
The religious right would have us believe that 13-year-old Asher Brown and 13-year-old Seth Walsh made a choice at 13 to be gay-a choice to be brutally bullied. It was easier for Asher to blow his brains out and Seth to hang himself than to choose to be straight.
The religious right needs to be held accountable for the climate of hate and fear and bullying they have encouraged. This what we're seeing for their efforts:dead children.
The issue I am wrestling most with right now is the continual chorus of the religious right that they are driven by love, that there is nothing hateful about their words and deeds. You don't get to tell children that they are not natural, a violation of of the word of God and other things that drive them to kill themselves and then hang onto your false belief that it's not hateful.
36 comments:
I saw you comment mulitiple times on CJANE'S blog and I just wanted to give you some food for thought. I don't believe it is the religious right that insights these horrific acts of bullying. To blame them when their constant message is one of maturity. (I'm speaking not just of mormons here but of the collective religious right) I don't believe the kind of teenage kids who are doing this kind of bullying have anything to do with religion. I would submit that they are getting much more of this from pop culture. I mean have you watched the show GLEE at all? The "bully" characters are constantly and physically knocking around and tormenting the main gay character. If you want to take such an extreme issue with something why don't you start writing Fox for putting that on television. My guess is that has a lot more to do with what is going on there. People who believe that being gay is wrong have just as much right to believe that as you do to believe that it is right. To attack their beliefs as it seems the entire homosexual community is so prone to do these days is reverse discrimination. People have a constitutional right to stand up for what they believe in, whether anyone else believes or like it or not. Homosexuality is not condoned by the Lord in the bible, most religious people are trying to be obediant to what the Lord has laid out in the bible. How else are they supposed to interpret that. Do we assume that because we have changed God has? Have you considered that maybe those who are religious struggle? That they want to love their brothers, and also follow God's commandments. This is not always easy, and now it is not at all popular. Attacking people's right to believe in principles God laid out in the bible thousands of years ago is just as hateful. Making someone feel that they are "wrong" for having faith in those principles, and then saying they are hateful, it's all very hypocritical. And if you haven't checked out what is going on in the entertainment world with portaying Gay bullying,you should. I would wager much more of the inspiration for these horrible acts is coming from that, and not the other.
I too saw you comment on CJane's blog and just wanted to tell you I think you are smart, wonderful, intelligent, awesome and what the world needs. Keep on keeping on and all the best to you and your son (who will return periodically to the nest...we all do)
:)
Lauren
Hi Fresh Hell,
I was going to write a long drawn out comment about my experience as a mother of a gay son, who is now 19, and the pain he/we/the whole family experienced through Prop 8 but decided against it. I will say that it almost ended very badly, but I found my child before the deed was finished. Life changeing to walk in on that. I don't think they get the reality of that. I just wanted to say that I really appreciate your comments on the other blog. One day, hopefully in the very new future our loved ones will not have to deal with this ignorance.
(hug) from one mother to another.
Anon, You've somehow managed to get around the pro-slavery part of the bible (I am hoping) and if you are woman I assume you speak in church.
What is easy is making "well reasoned" exceptions for oneself while using the bible as a battering ram against others.
It's not hypocritical to live in and support a non-theocracy and want religious leaders to stay out of politics. Nor is it hypocritical to point out that many gay adults who I personally know site the horror of what was preached to them as child as to why they struggled with depression or suicide and ultimately left the church.
Laurn and Anonymous, Thank you both so much for your very kind words.
Anonymous, I am so thankful you found your son in time. You are absolutely correct that most people who support Prop 8 and the like do not understand the pain caused. They instead surround themselves with those like them and then they all agree that the people they are hurting are wrong to feel/be hurt.
At the basic level, it's truly a sickness to want to deny rights to others in the name of "love." It's not possible to do such a thing and thank goodness this country is waking up to that for our child's sake and for all GLBTQ people.
I just read your comments on Cjane and I want you to know that I love you now! :))
I too would like to see the devastation that legalizing gay marriage has brought to the heterosexual world. Have any temples been closed down yet? Hmmm, I haven't heard of any.
Hey cowards! Post by your real name and link if you really stand by your opinions!
Cjane has just this second removed the post from her blog!!!
I also just read that Packer guy's speech - what a bigot.
"To legalize that which is basically wrong or evil..." he says, referring to homosexuality.
How anyone can listen to and be OK with stuff like that needs their head checked.
Just wanted to drop by and say I'm supportive of your comments on the cjane post.
I am an ex-Mormon who started a blog in response to prop 8 when I lived in LA. It's been a couple of years since I posted anything, but I'm ready to start it back up since there has been so much going on regarding this very important issue. Now is the time to raise our voices so another child doesn't take his or her own life.
I moved to Austin last year. What part of Texas do you live in?
Dear Fresh Hell,
I was married to a man who, after we were married, told me that he was gay. He didn't want to talk with me about it and instead said he wanted me to focus on the choice that he made in marrying me. There were many years of heartache for me. He blamed me for his lack of interest in sex saying I was fat (I wasn't) or this excuse or that. In the end there was also betrayal of the promises he made when we did marry.
I also have a sister who is a lesbian. My mom has really struggled with the loss of the dreams that she had for my sister. Don't get me wrong, my mom loves her unconditionally, but she had to grieve for the life she knew that my sister would not lead.
I can't imagine the experience that you have had in your life in relation to your son. I only tell you this to express to you that there are always other sides, personal reasons and experiences for other people to feel the way that they do.
Mollie
I have bookmarked your site and look forward to reading your posts.
LP
Heidi, I love you too!
Mollie, I too look forward to reading your blog. I am on the Coastal Bend, I love living on the water!
Anonymous, I am so sorry that you and your husband were put into that position, had to walk through that pain. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
I'm another one who followed you from CJane -- thank you for articulating so many of my own views...and I'm so glad that your son has such an awesome mom!
Amanda, You are so kind, thank you. The fact of the matter is that I have a truly awesome kid and I am just lucky to be his mom.
Just wanted to write that I really enjoyed all the well thought comments you left today...Thank you. :)
Here from cjane too, no direct experience of this whole issue but just a strong feeling that we are all equal, some of us are good, some bad and those qualities are not defined by the colour of our skin, our religion or our sexual orientation, I also feel that homosexuality is as normal as heterosexuality and equally valid. You write very well and I admire your dignified stance on such a personal issue and wish both you and your son every happiness.
I read a few of your comments/questions on Cjanes' blog. I know not a lot of them were answered. I am LDS, and I have to say I appreciate how you asked the questions. They were direct, and without hatred. I don't have much to offer on some of them (well I do, but it is in depth, and I don't know if a "blog comment" would do it justice). But I saw this blog (thanks to facebook): http://gaymormonguy.blogspot.com/2010/10/president-packers-talk-from-gay-mormon.html?spref=fb
Now, I haven't had time to research the blogger - but some of his comments made sense to me. This may or may not help, just a different way to look at things I guess.
(continued)And just to offer how I feel, take it or leave it...it bothers me when people say, I am born gay. Whether someone is born gay or not (I am not gay, so I can't say how it feels...obviously), I don't feel is the issue. Every person chooses who they want to be with. One always has to choose before one can act. It's like an alcoholic saying, "I am born that way, it's just who I am". He/she may be born an alcoholic, be he/she still chooses to drink or be sober (I have 3 alcoholics in my family - so that's my best comparison - I am not trying to trivialize anything).
Say a woman may be born with the natural desire to stray from her partner (gay or straight). But she doesn't just "move on" without making the choice to do so first. If she denies her natural feelings to be unfaithful - does that make her wrong? If she chooses to stray, does that make it right? I don't know. Just because it's her right, it doesn't mean it's the right thing to do.
Being born, or natural, however we describe ourselves is only one part. Our physical bodies. But what about our spirits? If we are made in the image of God (both in body and spirit), are we not to follow the laws of creation and all it entails? Being man or woman, with intelligence - having the ability to choose on a moral level (right/wrong issues) - is that what separates us from animals? I believe we are here to learn how to control both our physical and spiritual bodies. And by believing that, it means that our spiritual beings are often at odds with our physical bodies. Just my feelings...
~Sheri~
(one last thing)
Oh and to touch on another point about the suicides/hated issue. It is a sad day when someone takes a life, for whatever issues. But to blame it just on "bullying", I think is short-sighted. It certainly is a different world out there, than it was when I was a kid. With facebook/social media, how hard must it be for one who is bullied - because you can't come home and get away from it (assuming home is a safe haven - although I know the pressures with religion/tradition play a big role too). The issue is the generation these days seem to treat the value of a life differently. The lack of respect and civility to one another - and I don't mean the "bullying" mentality - but the complete disregard for someone's well being other than their own. We as parents need monitor our children (esp. with social media). We need to wake up and realize that we need to teach our children not just that "bullying" is wrong, but that life - and those who are living it - deserve respect and that it is selfish and wrong to not have regard to someone's well-being. And that everyone has a right to be who they are, and believe what they believe, just as long as it doesn't bring harm or injury to someone else. ie - tolerance.
Everyone is entitled to believe what they want. But I must admit, it frustrates me for someone to tell me that because I believe in something that differs from them, that I am full of hatred. (And I am speaking in general - by no way am I saying this about you - I'm just venting a little bit - work with me here...). That's kind of hypocritical. If I followed that way of thinking, then I could say that they are hating me because they disagree with what I believe. There needs to be tolerance on both sides of an issue. At the end of the day, I have to be honest with myself, believe what is true to my heart, and make my choices accordingly - to do any different would be a lie.
Ok - I am done rambling...Good post - it made me think.
~Sheri~
I found this article to be particularly helpful
http://lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?locale=0&sourceId=43786e9ce9b1c010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD
If one believes in God, in Christianity, then it is worth truly praying about the truth of the matter.
As for me, tolerance and love need to be present. I don't condone it but nor is it my place to condemn.
I want to thank you for your direct, thoughtful, and challenging comments on CJane's blog.
I thoroughly agree that religious -- and non-religious -- rhetoric instigates and incites violence and bullying against gay men and women. No matter how much someone wants to cloak such rhetoric in "hate the sinner, not the sin" (if Christian) or "it's not natural and against God's image," as though that somehow justifies it, it is still hate and hate-mongering. How on earth is a 10 year old child supposed to handle such pressure, whether it comes from family, church, school, peers, or the media? It's disgusting to me.
I consider myself a straight ally. I have many wonderful friends, gay and straight. Many of my gay friends are married and some have children. They raise families like anyone else. Their joy and their fears are akin to every other parent's feelings. They love one another, they love their children. There is nothing wrong or unnatural about it.
Best wishes to you and your family. It sounds like you've created a loving, supportive environment for your son, which is exactly what every person needs, gay or straight, child or adult.
Hi I just wanted to make sure you do know that we mormons don't believe what the Salt Lake Tribune has to publish as doctrine.
If you read Boyd K. Packer's address in full and you can here: http://lds.org/conference/talk/display/0,5232,23-1-1298-23,00.html
You will notice a reoccuring theme of him reaching out with the knowledge and the oppurtunity to those who wish to find a way to overcome struggles and not just of being gay but being addicted to pornography as well. And this message can be applied to many, many addictions.
I just wanted to make sure you knew that the Salt Lake Tribune's publishings, such as those you quoted, is not something we discuss, worship or even talk about in church classes and meetings.
I for one as a mormon believe that everyone is born NATURALLY with different desires and different temptations. For some it is alcohol and/or drugs, for some it is pornography, for some it is infedelity and for some it is attraction to the same sex. So yes, I do believe this could be a natural desire. But I do also believe that if one chooses, all things can be overcome and you can mold your life and who you are into something you want to be.
I'm rambling, but I hope you see that I do believe your son was born with natural desires and him making the choice to pursue them and you supporting him in this decision, well I just think that's fabulous. Good job being an awesome mom, sounds cliche but I really mean it :)
You are awesome. Keep writing. I love your perspective. I firmly believe (because God told me so) that marriage equality for all will happen. It's just a matter of time. I firmly believe in my heart when our children are adults they will look back and wonder what this marriage equality fuss was all about. No church, no stupid Prop 8, no supposed bible verse will stop it. This I know is true.
Rock on Fresh Hell! Love the comments that you have on CJane and it sounds like you have done an awesome job of raising your son. I am not mormon, nor a mother, but I do read CJane. I live in Phoenix; Mesa, one of the "suburbs" here is the second epicenter of the mormon world (other than Provo). My girlfriend (we have been together 9 years this month) was raised mormon and knows first hand the "love the sinner, hate the sin" concept. I guess I read CJane to try to understand my girlfriend's childhood better...and I have to tell you, sometimes it makes me want to cry - or scream. To this day, she struggles with self-esteem issues and thinks that she isn't good enough. She was in a very mentally abusive relationship for over 11 years and never thought she was worth it to make it stop. I guess I see firsthand the aftermath of being raised in that type of environment. It shocks me that parents would rather have their child turn out like that - instead of creating strong, independent, worthy children - they are more concerned about who they choose to sleep with (not to put too fine a point on it). I think a couple of posters put it best - if you are the one that is saying these things, you do not get to determine if it is hateful or hurtful - or what the end result of it will be! In response to Anon who is upset when people think that she is full of hatred for standing up for what she believes in...if you are going about your business, believing in the things that you do, that is not hate - that is belief in your way of life. When people (I don't know you, so I am not pointing fingers) go out and protest against Gay Marriages and pass laws to push their beliefs on other people - THAT is hatred. I don't push my beliefs on anyone else - I don't make straight people choose between marrying someone of the same sex or living a life of loneliness. That would just be pure hatred if I tried to do that! Everyone needs to remember that there is a separation of church and state and marriage is a civil ceremony - unless you choose to make it a religious one and get married in a church - your choice. And if your church doesn't allow gay marriages, well, I doubt if gays will want to be married in your church. And along with Fresh Hell, I am still waiting for someone to tell me how my getting marriage rights is going to in any way infringe on anyone else's rights? I am sorry I rambled...just my 2 sense.
BTW Fresh Hell - I am a perfectly happy, strong, independent, well-adjusted lesbian living the American dream. Props to my mom and dad for doing such a great job that I just don't care if other people hate on me. Your son will do awesome with the love of someone like you as his mom!
To one Anonymous to another,
Make no mistake, if you had a sign in your yard, on your car, on your person, you bullied.
I'm another one stopping by after reading and being impressed by your comments on CJane.
And I was confused as to whether she ever answered your questions - she linked to you today but I couldn't find a response.
I too came here from CJane's blog but to thank you for your support. I'm a young gay woman, not LDS but also not supported by my mother. I can't tell you the pain and anguish it causes me to know my mother rejects who I naturally am as a person. And I am so many things; a college graduate, future doctor, bad singer, community volunteer, tv watcher, avid reader, etc.
My sexuality is the least of things which define me.
Anyways, I just wanted to say thank you for being a proud mother and an accepting mother and speaking out on behalf of us "children".
Britt, A big motherly hug to you. You are many wonderful things and that includes being a lesbian. Keep being proud of yourself! I am proud of you!
I am mormon and I find it very sad that you are all fighting so hard for your beliefs but do not want us to fight for ours. You want us to just change our beliefs and who we are. Will you change you beliefs because I asked you to or because I bullied you into it? So many people are now bulling members of the LDS church. How is that different. Why cant I believe that being gay is wrong and you believe it is right? I would never hurt someone for being gay and President Packer in NO way suggested that anyone should be bullied for their beliefs. He has the right to believe what he believes and talk to his church members about those beliefs. For all the people so angry dont watch, dont listen, but dont tell us we cannot feel and express what we feel or believe. I am a suppoter of prop 8 because I believe the word marriage means man and woman. I do however respect that you do not believe that an I hope you fight for your beliefs but I will also fight for mine. Unfortunately we will be fighting against eachother. It is okay to agree to disagree.
My name is Briana by the way and I fully stand by how I feel.
Briana - all due respect, but we are not fighting against your beliefs. I REALLY blieve that everyone can have their own beliefs - it is what makes the USA such a great place to live and I will fight to the end for that freedom. We just don't believe that religiion has a place when creating civil laws. We are not forcing you to change your beliefs, just stay out of politics (I don't mean that as harshly as it sounds). How's this...Just don't make your beliefs civil law.
Well I believe that marriage is a man and a women and you dont so yes we are both fighting against
eachothers beliefs.
I think there could be a compromise and the mormon church has said that they are all for homosexuals having rights but we just want the word marriage to stay the way it is, a man and a woman. Plural marriage is also not legal because it is not a man and a woman. I also believe VERY strongly that this country was built on religion and should stay that way and I also believe that people want to take religion out of politics because their behavior does not fit into religious beliefs. It is not only the mormon church that supported prop 8. The mormon church was criticised for donating so much $ to prop 8. Do you donate $ to the causes and things you believe? So do we. I believe that religion needs to play a much bigger role in our country and maybe we would all be in a better place!!
Briana, One of my very favorite documents is the US Constitution and here is one of the reasons why I love it so:
"Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."
Equal protection is part of why being an American is not easy. We're asked to put our personal beliefs aside and instead live within a civil system that allows as much personal freedom as possible.
You are free to fight so that civil law aligns with your religion but history shows that equality wins in the end here. In the US we acknowledge the error of those excluded from equal protection, eventually.
Briana, I was married by a JP in my Aunts living room. No religion was involved at all. The word marriage has always has both religious and civil meaning. We cannot rewrite history to suit our purposes.
Our country was founded, in part, on freedom of and from religion. Our founders were far more concerned with individual liberties than religion. Most were also slave owners and did not consider women fit to vote. In other words, times change and part of the brilliance of our founding fathers was they purposely made room for that.
I saw on CJane's blog that you responded to my comment of "love the sinner not the sin".
Yes. Indeed, we are all sinners. There isn't a single person in the world who isn't.
We all have our battles- and you are right- some more public than others. Some have to continually stick up for their religious beliefs, some for their sexual orientation, some for their professions, etc... it can go on and on.
What I wanted to convey is simply: We should all love one another and be tolerant of each other. Just because we don't necessarily readily agree with what another is saying, doesn't mean that it doesn't have 100% validity to them.
I understand your pain as a mother, loving your child so fiercely that you'll do anything to defend them. I watched my grandmother go through the same emotions when my uncle came out to our family when I was a small child.
Our whole family embraces my uncle. We love him dearly. He is a WONDERFUL man. Our family loves his partner- he's also a great guy. Neither man is treated any different from the rest of our family.
These two sweet men also know our church's position on homosexuality- they do not expect us to sway from what we firmly believe for them. They love us enough to respect our religion. Just like we love them enough to respect their relationship.
I wish all of the people posting on the CJane blog can co-exist in peace, just like my family does- and stop judging each other so harshly.
Nobody should be asked (or forced) to do something they don't believe wholeheartedly in- or be bullied because they cannot be swayed.
Does anyone remember after 9/11 all the business marquees had messages like "god bless America"? And we had a national day of prayer. We seemed united about the place of god in our lives then. It was a scary and uncertain time. So all this talk about taking god out of our politics and our laws and our country makes me think, which is it folks? Do we need him or not? All I know is that when the ark starts floating, I wanna be on the inside. Simple as that.
I am LDS. I loosely follow cjane's blog, and my mother commited suicide. I came to see your blog out of curiosity, and found reference to the young people who took their lives.
I can't imagine the devastation for their families.
I've read a lot of opinions this afternoon, so many of them expressed with kindness and respect; I wish more dialogue were as dignified.
I do believe in the power of choice, and that to teach the strength of will can be empowering. I've wept many times wishing that my mom had seen another choice, that she had seen more strength in herself- more hope and light in the world.
Still, I am thankful for your remarks. They made me consider the feelings of someone struggling to reconcile their religious beliefs with their sexual tendencies, and attempt to understand what it must be to fight something you've felt since birth, something so central to your identity.
I am certain your son is magnificent as all children are. I know you will keep telling him that he is perfect, with no defect.
I commit to you that I will teach my children to honor him, and others. I will teach them kindness, and respect. They will be expected to speak out when others are cruel, and to step forward when anyone's dignity is threatened.
Whatever you may think of President Packer, the man who's remarks sparked such conversation this week, I dare say he might hold the same expectations for LDS people.
Anon at 11:38,
God does not belong in politics. Which god would you like to include anyway? There are many Christians (and others) who believe that Mormonism is a cult with false prophets and pedophiles. Would you like for their opinion to be the one true word? Should we strictly follow the Bible (New or Old Testament), The Book of Mormon, or The Quran? What about the teachings of Xenu, the god of Scientology? Let's not forget that the crimes of 9/11 were committed in the name of someone's god.
Putting aside the obvious differences in beliefs, what about the violence included in the various religious documents? How do we decide which parts to follow or ignore? I think that we mostly agree that slavery, stonings and rapes are a little out of style.
I am going with science and reason - you can take your chances with the ark.
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